icon

Histamine intolerance, PMS, period flu with naturopath Steven Judge

Melanie interviews Steven Judge, clinical naturopath in Sydney (NSW, Australia) specialising in chronic digestive disorders and mental health.



After 8 years in private practice working alongside medical practitioners as a director at the first integrative and holistic medical centre in Australia, Steven has gained a vast amount of knowledge and experience in empowering his clients to understand the underlying causes of their symptoms, and how to engage as an active participant in their healing journey as they learn to thrive and trust the inherent wisdom of their body. He evaluates the interactions among genetic, environmental, biochemical, emotional, spiritual and lifestyle factors that influence human health and chronic disease.



He wants his clients to experience true health-care, rather than simply disease management. And today we are lucky enough to get a glimpse into Steven’s wisdom on the topic of histamine intolerance and how it might be the answer into unusual menstrual related symptoms, that a lot of women are searching for.


Mentioned in the podcast:


Melanie's experience of period flu and how Steven helped her with this

What histamine intolerance is and what symptoms at certain points in the menstrual cycle women should be on the look out for that would give clues that it could be histamine; anxious, insomnia, unexplained nausea, vertigo, period migraines/headaches, joint pain, low blood pressure

How to confirm if histamine intolerance is the answer, and what high-histamine foods to avoid (the cheese platter has to go!)

How oestrogen and histamine intertwine in the menstrual cycle

Period flu and what exactly is driving it

What even is the oestrogen detoxification pathway and why does it matter?

What does pooing daily have to do with healthy hormones

SIBO, leaky gut, bacterial overgrowth and their contribution to histamine problemsWhat our favourite magnesium supplement is

You can connect with Steven over on instagram @stevenjudgenaturopath or www.stevenjudge.com.au


Click here to learn more about The Natal Naturopath and to sign up to the weekly newsletter. Don’t worry we won’t spam you! And for those who sign up to the newsletter you will get 10% off your first purchase.

If you would like to share this episode on your socials, be sure to tag @thenatalnaturopath. We love to know what you think of the podcast.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie (00:01.870)

Today we are joined by Stephen Judge. He is a clinical naturopath in Sydney, Australia, specializing in chronic digestive disorders and mental health. After eight years in private practice, working alongside medical practitioners as a director at the first integrative and holistic medical center in Australia, Stephen's gained a vast amount of knowledge and experience in empowering his clients to understand the underlying causes of their symptoms and how to engage as an active participant

 

healing journey as they learn to thrive and then trust the inherent wisdom of their body. He evaluates the interactions among genetic, environmental, biochemical, emotional, spiritual and the lifestyle factors that influence human health and chronic disease. Stephen wants his clients to experience true health care rather than simply disease management. And today on the podcast, we are lucky enough to get a glimpse into Stephen's wisdom on

 

Melanie (01:01.870)

how it relates to the menstrual cycle. So we delve into topics like, we delve into topics of unexplained menstrual symptoms, PMS, PMDD, period flow. It's a really, really good episode. So if you are someone with a menstrual cycle, this is the episode you do not want to miss.

 

 

 

Melanie (00:01.569)

Hey Stephen and welcome to the podcast. How are you?

 

Steven Judge (00:05.990)

I'm good at taking a smell. Thank you so much for having me.

 

Melanie (00:09.469)

Oh, thank you for coming on. I'm so excited to talk about this topic today. So we're gonna be covering histamine intolerance and especially how it relates to women. But before I get into that, can you tell the listeners a little bit more about your nootropathy practice and your special interests and things like that?

 

Steven Judge (00:30.890)

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in practice for about eight years now and I've got a special focus on gut health and mental health. Especially during my training, I was always really passionate about mental health in particular. I guess coming from the perspective that, when we're working with mental health presentations, I'm looking at it as, not as some sort of genetically predetermined chemical imbalance situation,

 

Melanie (01:00.749)

really a situation where there are many.

 

Steven Judge (01:01.510)

a situation where there are many different underlying factors that may be related to why someone is experiencing mental health challenges, like whether that's poor gut health or deficiencies or trauma and all these different things. I'm really passionate about a root cause approach to supporting mental health. And as most naturopaths discover in their training, pretty much everything is related to the gut. So I do have a huge focus in my clinic

 

Melanie (01:10.911)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (01:26.069)

Hehehe

 

Steven Judge (01:30.850)

disorders, like IBS and lichen gut and SIBO and inflammatory bowel diseases, because as we know these things significantly impact mental health. And yeah, really gut and mental health is my shtick. And yeah, it's a very streamlined approach to figuring things out for people, so to speak, and getting them on really targeted treatment protocols. And yeah, it's really good stuff.

 

Melanie (01:39.789)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

 

Melanie (01:55.132)

Yep.

 

Melanie (01:58.249)

And you are actually my naturopath as well. So I enlisted your help probably was two years ago now. I think it was, yeah, we were in the heart of lockdown. It was 2021. And I booked with you because I was experiencing period flu, which we'll talk about a bit later on, but you were able to completely treat it. And, you know, I just couldn't understand what was happening for myself because it's so hard to look at your own health unbiasedly. I think, is that the word?

 

Steven Judge (02:01.350)

Bye.

 

Steven Judge (02:26.150)

Absolutely, I see my own people, don't worry.

 

Melanie (02:29.449)

Yeah. So, um, it was, it was so, so useful though, because I imagine if I had have just gone to the doctor and said, you know, I'm experiencing period flu every time I get my period, I dare say their suggestion would have been, Oh, well, he's an antidepressant and he's the pill, you know, or either or choose either or so it was really nice to be able to understand like, this is the exact cause that's trait that and then I haven't had it back. So that was, um, yeah, that was, it was like,

 

life-changing because it was really affecting my ability to function actually for that full week before my period. So onto the topic today, histamine intolerance. Can you just give us a broad overview of what is histamine intolerance?

 

Steven Judge (03:06.470)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (03:16.690)

Yeah, absolutely. So, and yeah, I'll try to explain this in a really simple to understand way for people because like it can get really complex. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. So histamine intolerance is essentially what develops in an individual when too much histamine accumulates in the body due to reduced capacity to detoxify and get it out from the body.

 

Melanie (03:23.489)

Yeah. Oh, and we like basic science. Yeah, yeah.

 

Melanie (03:44.854)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (03:46.650)

that we are constantly making histamine on purpose all the time. You know, it has some important roles in the body. It's not the enemy, so to speak. But what we do with histamine and with histamine intolerance is when it builds up in the body, because we're not getting it out. Kind of similar to estrogen, right? If you have kind of estrogen dominant, relatively dominant symptoms, a lot of that is due to poor detoxification of it.

 

Melanie (03:57.190)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (04:06.853)

Okay.

 

Melanie (04:15.113)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (04:16.650)

So we create both histamine endogenously. So we create histamine internally, inside of our body, that has many different roles, like as a neurotransmitter, for example, and to mount a response against allergens. But we also can acquire histamine exogenously or externally. So there are certain foods that are very high in histamine as well.

 

Steven Judge (04:46.650)

So some people, I would say most people I meet with histamine intolerance, they have a reduced capacity to detoxify histamine from the outside world, predominantly from food, which we'll get into in more detail, but it's really due to some underlying gut microbiome imbalances. But then people with histamine intolerance to some degree are also having issues with detoxifying their own internal histamine, which we'll get into is mostly related to

 

Melanie (04:57.349)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (05:05.549)

Mmm.

 

Steven Judge (05:16.810)

So when people have this reduced capacity to detoxify histamine, generally speaking, they can become histamine intolerant. And that essentially develops as a long list of symptoms that can manifest, which we'll get into as well. But it's a really... It's an interesting one.

 

Melanie (05:18.149)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (05:41.710)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (05:47.070)

Like I alluded to before, most people when they hear the word histamine, they think of its role in allergies, right?

 

Melanie (05:53.569)

I was just going to say that hay fever or, yeah, an allergy based response.

 

Steven Judge (05:59.430)

Yeah, so if someone is exposed to dust and the body senses that as a foreign item, foreign body, it mounts its allergic response. And part of histamine's role in the body is to induce an inflammatory and immune response. And it's why people become very sneezy and itching and runny nose and that classic kind of allergic response. But histamine plays a role in so many

 

Melanie (06:24.269)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (06:29.350)

other ways that people don't think about. In fact, I didn't even really learn much about in my own training. So it plays a role in within the nervous system. So it's a really important neurotransmitter. So it plays a role in neurotransmission and cognitive function and in our sleep wake cycle. So that's a big one I focus on a lot in my clinic. And I see a lot, you know, histamine intolerance

 

Melanie (06:35.771)

Yep.

 

Melanie (06:44.302)

Ahhhh

 

Steven Judge (06:59.490)

system, so people who are very anxious, very nauseous, you know, unexplained nausea and vertigo, these kind of symptoms. Yeah, and so it's also a regulator of our digestive function, so if you've got too much histamine, you become histamine intolerant within the digestive system, it tends to manifest, like with all manner of gut symptoms, like bloating and cramps like that, but especially kind of chronic reflux and nausea and diarrhea.

 

Melanie (07:00.551)

Right.

 

Melanie (07:06.649)

Ah, wow.

 

Melanie (07:28.551)

Right.

 

Steven Judge (07:29.410)

And so histamine plays a role in dilating our blood vessels. So again, if there's too much histamine, it can significantly affect a uterine smooth muscle and be a big driver of period pain dysmenorrhea. But yeah, so it's incredible how many roles it plays in the body, which is kind of why I became so fascinated by it and I was seeing so many clients with these issues related to histamine intolerance

 

Melanie (07:45.109)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (07:54.249)

Mmm.

 

Steven Judge (07:59.891)

when they were kind of on paper, quote unquote, doing everything right, they were eating so many.

 

Melanie (08:05.209)

Yeah, it's like that missing, that missing pace.

 

Steven Judge (08:08.390)

Yeah, yeah, so eating food, coffee and, you know, taking certain supplements and but they were still really sick with all these kind of strange symptoms.

 

Melanie (08:10.329)

And you know... Yeah.

 

Melanie (08:19.749)

And you know, I certainly didn't learn about this in my uni studies about histamine intolerance. So I also had the very limited knowledge about histamine being just related to allergies and learning like it has so many roles. It's really fascinating.

 

Steven Judge (08:37.290)

It is completely, yeah. So that's how I kind of fell into it by, just kind of by accident, you know, because I was seeing a lot of people with chronic digestive issues. I noticed it was particularly women who also were presenting with a lot of like really intense kind of premenstrual and also symptoms around ovulation.

 

Melanie (08:51.069)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (08:55.275)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (09:05.550)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (09:07.629)

really intense anxiety and insomnia, and then all these kind of digestive symptoms along with it. And I thought, what is going on with these people? Like, and the kind of typical treatments I'd prescribe weren't really helping. When I made the histamine link, I went, right, it's really about people not detoxifying histamine and estrogen properly, and then, and like via the liver and the gut. And so once we get on top of that, these women appear to get, you know, significantly better.

 

Melanie (09:19.909)

Okay.

 

Melanie (09:23.854)

Ah.

 

Melanie (09:27.770)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (09:37.249)

And it does occur in men. I do meet men who are very histamine intolerant. It just has picked up a lot more in women because of its relationship to estrogen, and women with these fluctuating levels of estrogen throughout the cycle.

 

Melanie (09:46.955)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (09:51.149)

Yes, and then it appears much more prominently with strong symptoms. But I mean, the symptoms are very, very, there's many like it's in different body systems and sorry, I guess it could be tricky. So then if someone did think they had histamine intolerance, is there a certain test they can do for this?

 

Steven Judge (10:14.350)

Yeah, look, if you have a Google about this, there are a lot of different tests offered out there for histamine intolerance. But I wouldn't say like there's this one test that's definitive in any way. So, you can do like a blood test for whole blood histamine, but that's not very accurate or representative at all of if someone is histamine intolerant. That's really just a snapshot in time

 

Melanie (10:20.810)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (10:26.589)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (10:36.374)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (10:39.809)

really. Yes.

 

Steven Judge (10:44.595)

It's not really represent...

 

Melanie (10:45.369)

And does that also, you know, when we think about testing hormones, you know, I always tell my clients that again is just one day in your cycle and they fluctuate every day. So is that the same sort of thing with histamine? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it.

 

Steven Judge (10:58.550)

Pretty much, it's not representative of anything really. Just to be frank, we used to think it was representative of someone's methylation status, but we know that's not very accurate for that now either. But so you can do tests for your levels of an enzyme called DAO, diamine oxidase. So it's what we should be making the body in the lining of the gut wall to clehistamine. But again, I just, I really bother with that

 

Melanie (11:12.213)

Okay.

 

Melanie (11:19.909)

Yep.

 

Melanie (11:25.269)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (11:28.550)

such an expense and regardless of that result, the easiest way to assess for this is to get people to follow a logistamine diet and see what happens. That is usually very obvious within a few weeks. I usually set people two to four, but it's usually pretty obvious.

 

Melanie (11:30.311)

Hmm

 

Melanie (11:42.120)

Ah

 

Melanie (11:46.010)

Right, okay. And then...

 

Melanie (11:51.109)

Okay. So that's where we're minimizing histamine in our diet. Therefore the body hasn't got that. What's the word? X the outside amount of histamine coming in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so we'll go on to foods in a minute, but can you talk about, you did mention

 

 

Steven Judge (12:04.074)

Ah, okay.

 

Steven Judge (12:07.250)

That's a no.

 

Steven Judge (12:19.414)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (12:21.749)

And you know, we know that it can show up like you mentioned in a wide collection of symptoms and if someone had those They may be going to their GP and being diagnosed with just PMS, PMDD, Period Flu, whatever the label is. But yeah, talk to us about the link between the two

 

Steven Judge (12:34.213)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (12:43.350)

Absolutely. So yeah, it's really interesting. So the easiest way to think about it, like when I'm sitting in my clinic and explaining it to clients, estrogen and histamine are kind of like besties. Like they liberate and increase each other. So if there's an issue with one of them being detoxified and there's higher levels than they should be, it will automatically increase the level of the other. And you end up in this vicious cycle of histamine and estrogen issues. So there's this two way process

 

Melanie (13:04.870)

it will automatically increase the level of the other. Hmm.

 

Steven Judge (13:13.390)

between estrogen and histamine in the body. They liberate and reinforce each other. And so, you know, there are estrogen receptors present on mast cells, which are the cells that, you know, release histamine. So when estrogen binds to mast cells, histamine is released. So, you know, estrogen can stimulate histamine release, but at the same time, if you've got too much estrogen,

 

Melanie (13:26.471)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (13:44.550)

it reduces the level of this DAO enzyme, which is responsible for clearing histamine from the body. So the estrogen increases histamine levels and reduces the ability of your body to clear it at the same time. Yeah, not a good combo. So you can end up in this vicious cycle of histamine symptoms.

 

 

Melanie (13:59.789)

So both at once, yep. Yeah, and not a good one. No!

 

Steven Judge (14:13.350)

very likely to be the reason why it appears to be more common in women due to these fluctuations of the hormonal cycle. So one of the best kind of clues or indicators that someone like a woman is very histamine intolerant is to track and see if any of these symptoms have been discussing.

 

Melanie (14:19.452)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (14:43.350)

insomnia, digestive symptoms, you know, pain, especially if these are occurring like in a repeated pattern just before ovulation and also in the premenstrual phase. So the reason why we say to look out for symptoms during these times is because relative to

 

Melanie (14:51.471)

if these are occurring.

 

Melanie (14:56.149)

population. Okay.

 

Melanie (15:00.809)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (15:09.209)

relative to progesterone, the estrogen is naturally a little bit higher at these times of birth. Yes.

 

Steven Judge (15:13.350)

at these times of the menstrual cycle. So, you know, it's meant to be higher, but again, if there is poor and compromised estrogen detoxification and it's higher than it should be, then you get this automatic increase in histamine and then you get histamine intolerance symptoms. So, I see this all the time in the clinic, I've got women kind of coming in, they may have, you know, a lot going on, but they will express like, look, I get insomnia

 

Melanie (15:19.049)

It's meant to be my authentic...

 

Melanie (15:32.271)

Okay.

 

Melanie (15:37.849)

they may have a lot going on. Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (15:44.010)

but it's only around ovulation and or like my premenstrual phase. Like it's not constant, but like clockwork, it's at one or both of those times. And that's what I instantly know, cool. Like, and I have to work on histamine and estrogen detoxification here. Yeah, and I love explaining it because no one seems to have explained it to them or, you know, taken that angle and it works really well once you know.

 

Melanie (15:49.753)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (15:54.491)

Okay.

 

Melanie (16:06.734)

No.

 

Melanie (16:10.449)

I mean, as you and I know, but so many that aren't training this way, they're not thinking like this is it's the root cause approach. And if you're able to understand why is this happening, not just band-aiding up the symptoms, I mean, we're going to get much better results.

 

Steven Judge (16:26.750)

Absolutely.

 

Melanie (16:28.649)

And so you mentioned it doesn't have to be at both times in those in the menstrual cycle. You mentioned it could be one or the other. So you might get those flare ups before ovulation or it might be before your period. Doesn't have to be both.

 

Steven Judge (16:36.450)

it.

 

Steven Judge (16:40.390)

No, it doesn't have to be both. For some women it is, but for a lot of others, it's one or the other. It's very individual.

 

Melanie (16:42.429)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know myself for my menstrual cycle. I feel the best before ovulation. That's my height. Yeah. That's like the real Melanie just, just flourishes then. And I'm, I'm always, yeah, no getting all the issues before my period arrives. So that's me personally, but

 

Steven Judge (16:52.150)

Hell yeah.

 

Steven Judge (17:03.750)

I think the premenstrual phase and the luteal is the more common.

 

Melanie (17:09.869)

Yes. Yep. And so, you know, classically, like we all think with histamine, it's to do with allergy, hay fever, whatnot. So those common symptoms like itching, sneezing, you know, eyes and that sort of thing, that doesn't necessarily have to be present, does it?

 

Steven Judge (17:26.710)

No, not at all. So again, people with gut issues that does tend to be there, but like the respiratory symptoms, but they are very confused because they haven't had all this allergy testing done. And you know, apparently they've got no allergies. Like, why am I so allergic? That is a classic like, you know, red flag of art, it's got to be histamine. Because if there's nothing allergic going on, but they are presenting allergic,

 

Melanie (17:37.556)

Okay.

Melanie (17:51.770)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (17:56.550)

usually. You do not have to have those symptoms. So again, someone could have 8 to 10 of the symptoms. I've met people with just one, you know, it's hard to explain why everyone's so different. But you know, some of the other key symptoms, like I said before, are to do with the gut, especially reflux and diarrhea, but it can also be bloated and stuff. And then nausea is a really key symptom that gets missed. I meet so many people with this unexplained

 

Melanie (17:57.211)

Okay.

 

Melanie (18:05.651)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (18:15.352)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (18:26.149)

Okay.

 

Steven Judge (18:27.530)

It's kind of thought about as a gut symptom, but it actually manifests due to the nervous system histamine imbalance. So I see a lot of women with vertigo symptoms and migraines and stuff like that. They manifest also in the cardiovascular system. So low blood pressure is a classic sign as well.

 

Melanie (18:43.010)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (18:51.774)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (18:56.170)

very kind of low blood pressure presentation, or they might have palpitations and arrhythmias and stuff like that.

 

Melanie (19:02.789)

Right, wow. I know I've had a couple of clients with vertigo and dizziness that flares up at certain points in the menstrual cycle. And I mean, without this knowledge of histamine, you would be like, okay, I have no idea why is this happening? And I think if I didn't know about histamine, I would just think, okay, well, there's something wrong with their hormones. But yeah, it's really understanding what is it impacting estrogen or estrogen impacting histamine,

 

Steven Judge (19:05.030)

And also, I think it's going to be interesting to see what it's going to look like.

 

Steven Judge (19:12.514)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (19:17.550)

Thanks.

 

Steven Judge (19:32.270)

Yeah, and I didn't mention before, I probably should have with this like, ovulation and premenstrual phase, like look out for these symptoms. Another like really classic one is migraines. So premenstrual migraine symptoms. I don't think I've ever met anyone where histamine wasn't involved with that to some degree. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, a few other symptoms like, you know, chronic joint pains and,

 

Melanie (19:42.231)

Oh, yes.

 

Melanie (19:48.871)

Wow, yes. So common. So common.

 

Melanie (19:58.453)

Hmm

 

Steven Judge (20:02.150)

I don't think I've met a woman with endometriosis who isn't experiencing histamine intolerance to some degree. There is some research looking at the role of, you know, mast cell dysregulation and endometriosis, which kind of confirms what I see in clinic. And I'm yet to meet anyone with an autoimmune condition who also is at to some degree histamine intolerant. Just chronic systemic inflammatory situation that those people are in.

 

Melanie (20:02.449)

Thank you.

 

Melanie (20:08.030)

Wow.

 

Melanie (20:14.469)

Yep. Yeah.

 

Melanie (20:24.023)

Oh my gosh, wow.

 

Melanie (20:30.151)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (20:32.150)

become quite intolerant to histamine. And it's just a kind of good thing to understand to help get symptom relief as quickly as possible at the beginning, but then get to the root cause of it.

 

Melanie (20:35.810)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (20:41.489)

For sure.

 

Melanie (20:45.709)

And also, you know, when we're experiencing something like this, and I know when I was experiencing the period flu coming every month, I just felt so out of control and just trying to understand what is it? Why is this happening? It's just so validating, like, okay, there is a clear cause and there's such relief in knowing there is a clear treatment path with the right practitioner as well.

 

Steven Judge (21:07.330)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

 

Melanie (21:09.729)

So onto period flu. So my experience was before period, before my period would arrive, like clockwork day 25, 26, 27, I would be hit with the feelings of having a virus without the viral symptoms of fever, sore throat, cough. It was like the extreme debilitating fatigue, every muscle hurt. So literally if I would touch my arm muscles, they would be so sore like I had done a huge gym workout.

 

Steven Judge (21:38.170)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (21:39.989)

Those were the main ones. It was, um, yeah, the full exhaustion, the extreme pain in my body. And then I also had insomnia, um, what else? Sweats. And then I didn't feel like eating a great deal either. I just, yeah, totally felt off and very, very depressed. So period flu, you know, is not as common as PMS for example, but I, I

 

Melanie (22:10.511)

So can you talk to me about period of flu? So what is the driver? You know, what's going on there?

 

Steven Judge (22:19.011)

Yeah, it's a good question because it's not that well researched, so to speak.

 

Melanie (22:24.410)

Mm-hmm. Oh, I know, like when I was Googling, I got a few blogs, but there wasn't any clear, yep.

 

Steven Judge (22:31.470)

Yeah, I mean, I have my suspicions based on, you know, mechanisms, but it's not as well understood as like PMS, but like you were just saying, it essentially like mimics the flu, but you don't have an infection and you're not contagious or anything like that. So it's obviously tied in with, to some degree, it's tied in with something going on hormonally. So, you know, when

 

Melanie (22:44.989)

Yep.

 

Melanie (22:52.838)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (23:01.510)

half of the cycle. I mean, a lot of women can feel more tired generally and not be sleeping as well. So, and that can be due to an elevation in progesterone, but followed by a kind of steep decline. And this can really impact mood and serotonin levels and energy levels and stuff like that. So progesterone, as we know, is like, you know, it's anti-inflammatory and calming,

 

Melanie (23:08.890)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (23:31.369)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (23:31.430)

to fall and it falls too low, which is, as you would know, not normal but super common with women. It's such a delicate process, progesterone production and balance. When your progesterone drops, it really ramps up the release of cytokines and inflammatory compounds. So that, to my you know, to my knowledge, is probably what's going on to some degree, especially if there's a

 

Melanie (23:34.152)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (23:38.372)

Oh.

 

Melanie (23:41.790)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (23:52.049)

Okay.

 

Melanie (23:57.489)

Yes. And I mean, it makes sense. Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (24:01.470)

especially if there's a relative estrogen excess. So, you know, it must to some degree, I would assume, is due to very low progesterone and or, you know, relative estrogen excess. So, like we've been discussing, if there's relative estrogen excess, that may be being perpetuated by, you know, poor histamine detoxification as well. And look, in my experience,

 

Melanie (24:05.033)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (24:15.817)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (24:20.649)

you

 

Steven Judge (24:31.350)

degree, you know, we take a step back and we're like, Oh, why has someone got low progesterone? Yeah, it could be estrogen histamine related. But I think to a larger degree, what's really trumping all that is cortisol, dysregulation and chronic stress. Like really, that is such a nervous system thing. The progesterone steal, you know, if you're too, you know, pumping out stress hormones, and you're not going to be making progesterone, you know, the body is essentially

 

Melanie (24:38.549)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (24:45.229)

Yes, for sure.

 

Melanie (24:50.351)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (25:01.410)

to the world, like it's sensing danger. So yeah, I mean.

 

Melanie (25:04.189)

Yes. It is so impactful stress, like, you know, experiencing a menstrual cycle every month, I know when my stress is out of control, because you know, as humans, we do go through stress and it can be transient, or then it can turn into chronic. And absolutely, as you highlighted to me really well, two years ago was how much that was impacting my hormones, you know, I but my period was still regular, I was still ovulating on time.

 

Steven Judge (25:09.992)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (25:34.769)

But the rest of the cycle was just shit. You know, like everything was feeling really out and I was experiencing severe chronic stress especially living in Melbourne with lockdowns and that was absolutely the cause for me. Yeah, personally, yeah, that was what it was for me. And so interestingly, you know, women might think, okay, well, this is PMS or PAMD or period flu. I need to just...

 

Steven Judge (25:46.830)

Oh yeah, go on. So very close.

 

Melanie (26:04.069)

with doctors, it might be just let's shut down the hormones and that will, you know, let's go on the pill, it'll regulate things and balance you and which we know it's not doing. But if we don't consider the stress and we just tried to work on hormones, for example, without taking the stress picture and treating that, then we're not gonna really get the relief, are we? Because again, the root cause is saying it's the stress and the cortisol. Mm.

Steven Judge (26:28.090)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so every woman I've met with period through, yep, I've needed to work on estrogen and histamine detox and everything, but the most important kind of treatment strategy was to support the nervous system and whether that was through lifestyle, correcting certain deficiencies like nutrients, but as we know, herbal medicine kind of.

 

Melanie (26:43.656)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (26:54.210)

there. It's support. Very helpful. Yeah.

 

Melanie (26:55.469)

Yes and also for the in- yeah I love it. I mean I- I take withania constantly. Love it. It's just- just the best. You know magnesium. Yeah so back-

 

Steven Judge (27:04.758)

Thank you.

 

Steven Judge (27:10.714)

Yeah, yeah. It's been a combo of just supporting estrogen and histamine detoxification and you know supporting the nervous system really.

 

Melanie (27:18.869)

Yeah, yeah. Can you just quickly touch on actually we talk about estrogen detoxification. So what just quickly does that mean for people that aren't quite understanding the detoxification pathway? What does the body do with estrogen once it's you know, once it's finished with that?

 

Steven Judge (27:38.210)

Yeah, yeah, sure. So estrogen and like pretty much all of our hormones, the body breaks down estrogen and to prevent leftover estrogen metabolites from causing problematic side effects. So once estrogen has been made and it's done its various jobs in the body, it should be detoxified via different pathways in the liver and then essentially shut it off to the bowel

 

Steven Judge (28:08.490)

when we go to the toilet. So we're always detoxifying, so to speak. Detoxification is always happening by the liver and the bowels and the kidneys, but things can get in the way, so to speak. So these detoxification pathways in the liver and the bowels, they require an adequate amount of many, many different nutrients, zinc and magnesium.

 

Steven Judge (28:38.290)

human B vitamins and certain antioxidants. And, you know, we need a certain amount of fibre and we need to have, you know, specific populations of specific types of gut bacteria to be detoxifying estrogen. So all these elements kind of need to be in balance and working optimally for detoxification of estrogen to happen. But if they're not in balance, which is

 

Melanie (28:57.841)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (29:02.949)

you

 

Melanie (29:05.051)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (29:08.490)

just due to modern living and stress, we essentially start to reabsorb estrogen into circulation and we're not getting it out. So this is why, you know, with hormonal issues related to relative estrogen excess, you know, I get asked a lot, what herbs and supplements are good for balancing hormones? And I'm like, well, you know, there's a laundry list, but really what needs to be prioritized

Steven Judge (29:39.191)

But that's really like where you need to start. Not like, oh, well, which herb increases that? I'm like, yeah, yeah, that can be helpful, but what's more important is this liver and bowel detoxification. Like, are all the elements there to, for that to be done properly? Are they all there? Like that needs to really be at the forefront.

 

Melanie (29:44.949)

I'll get you back to be.

 

Melanie (29:54.384)

Hmm.

 

Melanie (29:59.009)

And so if any of the listeners are experiencing constipation, you know, you can see how this can affect your hormones. And they say like, what, what can we do for healthy hormones? Yes, it's quick and easy to take a supplement, but also the basics of the human function, like pooing every day. So important for just getting out all of that old estrogen so that it's not reabsorbed, like you mentioned.

 

Steven Judge (30:10.650)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (30:17.392)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (30:24.450)

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I get asked a lot, you know, how often should we be having a bowel movement? And I've researched this, and there are different answers and definitions, and like, what is constipation and all that thing. And, you know, I think a medical kind of definition of, you know, constipation and what is healthy is, you know, range and can be up to three times a week is okay.

 

Melanie (30:31.461)

Mmmmm

 

Melanie (30:34.934)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (30:54.349)

Okay, Jesus. Yeah, I'd feel like crap. Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (30:54.896)

What? That is...

 

Steven Judge (30:58.710)

Oh, that's shocking. I mean, I don't think there is a unified kind of specific definition, but I mean, I was always taught, I remember being taught at uni by a few lecturers that, you know, we should ideally be having a bowel movement at least once to twice a day, but ideally, every, up shortly after we eat. And I always remember thinking, oh my God, well, I don't do that. But as, as I

 

Melanie (31:05.838)

Mm.

 

Melanie (31:20.010)

Yeah, okay.

 

Melanie (31:24.930)

Yeah, that's a lot!

 

Steven Judge (31:28.990)

I did start to notice that happening. So, yeah, and I get a lot of, you know, when I'm working with clients, you know, I sometimes will ask, you know, do you experience constipation? And a lot of people say, no, I don't, to which I will follow up, okay, well, how often do you go to the bathroom? And, you know, a lot of people say, well, once every, you know, one or two days kind

 

Melanie (31:31.549)

Yeah, yeah, and your diet and...

 

Melanie (31:47.112)

Mm.

 

Melanie (31:49.469)

Okay.

 

Melanie (31:52.801)

Mm.

 

Melanie (31:57.390)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (31:58.730)

Which is conservation.

 

Melanie (32:00.529)

That's right. We don't. Yeah, like you sort of tend to imagine conservation is on that really quite severe end of like a couple of times a week or once a week or you know, yeah, wow.

 

Steven Judge (32:12.070)

Yeah. And I just bring that up to point out that, you know, it's not, I'm not, you know, pointing a finger at these people, but it's just where, you know, medical kind of advice around what is normal is I would strongly disagree. And so no wonder people think normal. So in general, so. Exactly. That's the word. It's like, cool. Like, I understand that's a quote unquote definition of what's normal. But I mean, yeah, I'd rather

 

Melanie (32:26.238)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (32:28.689)

Yes. And also what is optimal as well, you know.

 

Melanie (32:39.582)

Mm.

 

Steven Judge (32:42.050)

are we really going for optimal health here?

 

Melanie (32:44.469)

That's right. Absolutely. And something so simple to help your bowels is, you know, obviously drinking more water, but then we've got fiber and then the, the good, another benefit is that fiber is going to feed good bacteria and then the good bacteria will help your hormones as well and your histamine. And so just something so simple listeners could take away from today is increased fiber.

 

Steven Judge (33:05.850)

Yes, that can be, yes, that's very helpful. I would say though, some people, if people are following that piece of advice and they're getting worse and not getting better, it's like, you know, like they're eating fiber, but they're still really bloated and have irregular bowel movements. That is when it's this, and they have histamine symptoms. And like, that's a really obvious sign that, you know, they're experiencing one of the kind

 

Melanie (33:16.389)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

 

Melanie (33:24.974)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (33:35.690)

It's got myosis, leaky gut, and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

 

Melanie (33:36.070)

Yeah, yeah.

 

Melanie (33:41.529)

Okay, that's another whole episode in itself, such a heavy topic as well.

 

Steven Judge (33:46.350)

Yeah, and again, the easiest way to think about histamine intolerance. You know, I get asked a lot, well, what is the underlying cause and what tests should you do? Like I said before, I wouldn't bother with testing specific on histamine, so to speak. I would just go on a histamine diet, see how you feel. If you feel obviously better, cool. You are histamine intolerant to a degree. The root cause, one of the major root cause drivers for most people is gut dysbiosis, leaky gut, and SIBO. Because that DAO enzyme we make to

 

Melanie (33:55.690)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (34:00.349)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (34:13.809)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (34:16.350)

of histamine is made predominantly in the lining of the small intestinal wall, which is where leaky gut occurs. So if you have especially gut related histamine intolerance symptoms, it's absolutely related to poor detoxification by the gut and people develop certain bacterial overgrowths of bacteria that produce a lot of histamine as well. So the easiest way to think about histamine intolerance for the overwhelming majority of

 

Melanie (34:23.131)

Okay.

 

Melanie (34:38.253)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (34:46.270)

driven by gut bacterial imbalances, overgrowth and leaking gut. So what I actually recommend people do with testing to help direct their treatment is actually to get into microbiome testing. Because that's for histamine levels, but it's testing like what's going on with that root cause driver and treating that. Does that make sense? Yeah.

 

Melanie (34:59.091)

Oh, yeah.

 

Melanie (35:05.249)

Mm-hmm. Okay. And that's, that's a gut microbiome sort of mapping test that you could be prescribed, you could be referring to.

 

Steven Judge (35:15.130)

Yeah, a lot of people have this SIBO, small test of bacterial overgrowth. So technically SIBO testing is a bit different to microbiome testing. Sometimes we may recommend that instead. It just kind of depends on the person and what's going on.

 

Melanie (35:20.011)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (35:23.911)

Okay.

 

Melanie (35:29.189)

Of course, yeah. And so you mentioned histamine diet. So if they think they've got histamine intolerance following a diet and seeing if their symptoms improve. So can you talk about what are the foods that we really should be avoiding if we do worry we have high histamine or histamine intolerance?

 

Steven Judge (35:48.130)

Yeah, so this list of foods is really interesting. Because it's not what people, when I show them the list, they're like, oh wow, that's so random. And sometimes people say, oh my gosh, it's my whole diet. I'm like, yeah. And a lot of it's healthy stuff. So the easiest way to think about histamine foods is they are foods that are fermented, ripened, aged, leftover. So they are, yeah,

 

Melanie (35:51.749)

Go. Ha ha ha.

 

Melanie (35:57.489)

For sure.

 

Melanie (36:03.784)

Okay.

 

Melanie (36:13.751)

Okay.

 

Steven Judge (36:18.330)

fermented aged, ripened, leftover. So some of the major culprits here, if we think about those concepts, unfortunately, all types of alcohol, but especially wine, champagne and beer. So this makes so much sense to people when I explain that. It's like, oh my God, every time I have a wine, like I migraine, headache with this and that. And I'm like, yeah, it's very likely that, you know, insane levels of histamine in it. So I'm always telling

 

Melanie (36:28.378)

Haha

 

Melanie (36:31.811)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (36:42.467)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (36:47.112)

Yep.

 

Steven Judge (36:48.050)

you're going to have a drink, stick to spirits. All this like, you know, more fermented types are going to knock you around. But alcohol, particularly those three, everything in the category of like healthy gut fermented foods, so sauerkraut kombucha, yogurt, you know, so like I was saying earlier, these people that I, I meet with histamine intolerance, coming to me, they're like, I'm trying to fix my gut and doing all the right things, but I feel, and then

 

Melanie (36:55.811)

Okay.

 

Melanie (37:15.771)

Oh!

 

Steven Judge (37:18.190)

Oh my god, well, I only started eating those things because I read it was really good for my gut. That's what I look at you.

 

Melanie (37:22.850)

Of course, because we all associate. We do. We associate fermented things as being amazing for our gut, which they are in right cases, you know.

 

Steven Judge (37:32.470)

they are but if you I'd say the the people it doesn't suit as if they have developed histamine intolerance so unfortunately those foods for now will make them very symptomatic so we just ask them to pull back while they fix the underlying cause but fermented stuff so that all the fermented foods those things like vinegars and soy sauce

 

Melanie (37:49.890)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (37:56.012)

Ah soy sauce, okay.

 

Steven Judge (37:58.532)

a lot of people into vinegars. So all the deli.

 

Melanie (38:00.609)

Yeah and direct like salad dressings they have you know yeah.

 

Steven Judge (38:03.950)

Yep, exactly. And also a lot of citrus, so lemon and orange and things like that. The other plant foods are plants which tend to ripen, so like avocado. Tomatoes are a huge one, especially tomato paste, anything tomato-related. Eggplant and spinach. Nori. So there's quite a specific list of plant-based foods.

 

Steven Judge (38:34.090)

meats, so like bacon, and clammy, and prosciutto, and all these kind of leftover cured meats. And yeah, so look, there's kind of two categories with the food. Some foods are high in histamine, and other foods are not high in histamine, but they can cause your body to release histamine. So there's like chocolate, and walnuts, and peanuts, and pineapple, and things like that. So I always tell my clients, look, if you Google this, every list on the internet is going to look

 

Melanie (38:35.312)

Oh yes.

 

Melanie (38:42.791)

video.

 

Melanie (38:50.290)

Ah!

 

Melanie (38:54.850)

Okay, yep.

 

Melanie (39:03.233)

Mm.

 

Steven Judge (39:04.050)

and stressful for people because the list can start to become huge of what you shouldn't have. I've kind of got my own list of the say look this is the hardcore stuff just focus here first. Yeah 95% of people are like oh yeah that helped a lot so I don't take it any further than that. Just to reduce food avoidance stress but some people there is a study showing that you know the low FODMAP diet reduces histamine intolerance symptoms as well.

 

Melanie (39:16.290)

Making it easy, yeah.

 

Melanie (39:22.112)

Yeah, okay.

 

Melanie (39:34.874)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (39:34.970)

So, you know, if I've got someone sitting in front of me and they've got, you know, textbook, IBS, SIBO symptoms and bloating, but they're also serious to be intolerant, I'm like, well, I don't want to restrict their diet too much to begin with. So I might just get them to do a FODMAP first and see what happens there. But yeah, the foods, I mean, anything fermented, ripe and aged and left over, including all.

 

Melanie (39:42.970)

Hmm.

 

Melanie (39:45.901)

Mm.

 

Melanie (39:48.553)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (39:54.049)

Okay.

 

Melanie (40:00.369)

So I mean, the old cheese platter is out.

 

Steven Judge (40:05.354)

art, ideally only temporarily. But yeah, what gets people is that it's all very healthy stuff, you know.

 

Melanie (40:05.729)

No!

 

Melanie (40:11.249)

That's right. All of that except the cured meats and the alcohol. The rest to me is like people would be eating these day, you know, potentially daily and like, of course they're going to not. And a lot of those foods, you might have breakfast, lunch and dinner. Like you might have your berries in the morning, the strawberry, your tomato, and you know, and then it's like so hard to pinpoint what it is.

 

Steven Judge (40:15.767)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (40:28.271)

night.

 

Steven Judge (40:33.730)

Yes, yeah. And also, yeah, black and green tea are big culprits as well. So it's so funny, I mean, people go black and green tea, oh my gosh, I only switched to those because I thought giving up would be a good thing. And I'm like, well, look, actually, it actually

 

Melanie (40:44.509)

Oh, of course

 

Melanie (40:52.009)

Mm hmm. Oh God. Wow. You're so knowledgeable about it though. But um, so yeah, so wrapping it up today, we've gone through so much to do with histamine intolerance and, and wow, even I've learned some stuff. So it's amazing. Um, if you could change one thing about our current healthcare system, which is a bit, you know, a bit of a skewed question, what would it be?

 

Steven Judge (40:53.570)

the win. People.

 

Steven Judge (41:17.513)

Oh, my Lord. In fact...

 

Melanie (41:18.289)

Yeah, like how do you narrow it? But I like to end the episode with some quick questions. So what would be one thing you would change?

 

Steven Judge (41:24.402)

Oh

 

Steven Judge (41:26.890)

change one thing about our current healthcare system? I guess what comes first is just easier access to and you know you know the ability to do very in-depth testing for everyone without cost and stress like if that was just available that would be really...

 

Melanie (41:45.949)

know, can you imagine if the gut microbiome mapping was potentially partially or fully Medicare bulk build, you know, because it's, it's in the $300 like it's high close to like $400, which makes it so difficult.

 

Steven Judge (41:51.490)

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Steven Judge (41:58.270)

Yeah, all this functional testing is super helpful, but the cost can get through the roof. So that's why I got to learn all five things. But even just basic stuff like, you know, all right, referral letters to my clients to get blood stoned, but it's still a very mixed reaction from doctors of how much testing they'll do, like even when it's one third. So that's just what frustrates me a lot. But yeah, so I guess the easier access and two very thorough testing without that would be cool.

 

Melanie (42:27.949)

I love that. My next question is, and this can relate to histamine intolerance or not, it can be anything, but what would be your favorite supplement and why? You know, maybe something you take or just something that you find yourself recommending to clients a lot.

 

Steven Judge (42:29.913)

Hmm.

 

Steven Judge (42:40.570)

Uh.

 

Steven Judge (42:43.830)

Um, oh, look, I would have to say magnesium. You know? Yeah, because like, if you had to, you know, for whatever reason, if you were forced to pick one thing to support you via supplementation, it'd have to be magnesium. It just ticks so many boxes of, you know, different pathways and supports and is, you know, so depleted by stress. And, you know,

 

Melanie (42:47.609)

Yeah, I knew you'd say that, I feel I knew it. Yeah. Yeah, I love it.

 

Melanie (42:59.670)

Yep.

 

Melanie (43:03.849)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (43:13.810)

We can love herbal medicine, but I've always explained to my clients it cannot replace a nutrient deficiency. So you have to start with a nutrient. So and if I got a nutrient, zinc could be a place second, but magnesium. Yeah.

 

Melanie (43:20.049)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

 

Melanie (43:27.549)

Well, that's a really good point to highlight because if you're experiencing anxiety and then you go and grab a herbal supplement for anxiety because we know there's some beautiful nervine tonics and anti-anxiety herbs, but imagine if that anxiety is really being driven by a magnesium deficiency or a zinc deficiency. You know, I completely agree with you. You can't out supplement your way out of that. You need the nutritional supplement there.

 

Steven Judge (43:51.930)

Yes, I love, love, love and use herbal medicine with everyone, but it's just good to be where it can't replace its efficiency. So the mineral vitamin status is really an important foundation.

 

Melanie (43:59.031)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (44:03.169)

And I was reading this morning actually about magnesium. It was this, it was a review of, I think it was like 24 randomized controlled trials on magnesium and it found that magnesium lowers your fasting blood glucose, lowers your fasting insulin, lowers blood pressure. It's like, and then, you know, I know. And then it goes on to, you know, then there's nervous system benefits and energy benefits and sleep. It's like, what doesn't magnesium do? I love it, I love it.

 

Steven Judge (44:26.730)

pretty much. Yeah, that's why I say just start there. It just covers so many areas.

 

Melanie (44:31.529)

And what's your favorite form of magnesium? Because if someone's listening to this, they might go to the shop. But unfortunately, as we know, they might not be picking the correct form, um, you know, of magnesium.

 

Steven Judge (44:40.450)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I'm a fan of either magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate, just depending on what's going on. So the magnesium citrate, I will specifically recommend if someone does tend towards constipation and sluggish bowels, just because you absorb it really well as a magnesium supplement from the nervous system, but it does relax the bowel a bit, not as a laxative, but it just relaxes that muscle. So the max rate, especially, particularly if you tend

 

Melanie (44:47.949)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (44:57.891)

Yep.

 

Melanie (45:07.069)

It can help.

 

Steven Judge (45:10.350)

towards constipation. And on the flip side, if someone was more prone to diarrhea and those stools, I would not, I'd say stay away from citrate, which is in a lot of over-the-counter supplements, and I would make sure they take a glycinate. So that just, in my experience, the glycinate, again, you absorb it as a magnesium and it benefits the nervous system dramatically, but in my experience, it does not tend to affect the bowels at all. So the kind of gut, think about it like that, citrate, if you are, especially if tending

 

Melanie (45:12.432)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (45:20.410)

It is.

 

Melanie (45:33.450)

Okay, oh that's a really good one, yep.

 

Melanie (45:41.332)

Mm-hmm.

 

Steven Judge (45:41.350)

or if the gut is a bit hyperactive and hypersensitive in general, I'd say stick to a glycinate. And those two, yeah, like I know like magnesium threonate is out there and is quite popular now because of studies showing it's the only magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier and all these kinds of things. But it's just very expensive. And in my own just personal clinical experience, the glycinates have worked just as well. So for the last purpose.

 

Melanie (45:48.390)

Okay, oh, that's good to remember.

 

Melanie (45:56.370)

Hmm.

 

Melanie (46:08.450)

Okay, yep.

 

Steven Judge (46:10.530)

I always give people a choice and try it out. Maybe you will notice three and eight is better for the nervous system. But my experience has been glycinate is just as effective and it's a lot cheaper. So that's kind of.

 

Melanie (46:15.849)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (46:21.269)

Yeah, me too. I mean, that's what I take every day. So, but I agree. Yeah, it's great. My last question is there a book or a podcast that you would recommend to our listeners and why and it doesn't have to be health related.

 

Steven Judge (46:32.771)

Hmm.

 

Steven Judge (46:38.270)

I wish I had time to reflect on this one.

 

Melanie (46:41.869)

Yeah, I didn't give you much notice.

 

Steven Judge (46:44.211)

Hi, that is a good question. A book or a podcast? I guess, I mean, look, I'm always reading books and podcasts related to health in some capacity. I would personally recommend, like, I know we're talking about biochemical pathways and all this kind of thing. What goes wrong in the body, but you know, I try to frame all this from the perspective to people that like the body's never actually doing anything wrong.

 

 

Steven Judge (47:12.750)

Okay, whenever we're having symptoms or illness, that's not the body messing up. It's just our body communicating to us in its own unique way for us that something is out of alignment in how we're meant to be living. Okay, so whether that's, you know, not eating a diet in alignment with, you know, how we evolved to eat, or we're not sleeping, but how we evolved to be sleeping. But one of the biggest kind of influences

 

 

Steven Judge (47:42.670)

and symptoms, like I'm starting to realise is our perception of like what we're experiencing now. I don't want to say mindset, I want to say our perception of what we're experiencing. So, and I talk to clients a lot about this concept of placebo and nocebo effect. So, you know, a lot of people know what the placebo effect is. So, you know, they were in a study, they give people a sugar pill, but they're told it's a drug.

 

Melanie (47:47.694)

Mmm.

 

Melanie (47:52.732)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (48:02.149)

Hmm.

 

Melanie (48:09.774)

you

 

Steven Judge (48:12.550)

all the benefits they could get and they all get a large percentage of them get better and then they learned there was nothing in there. So it was really their perception and their belief that they were going to get better which made them get better, right? It's a power of the mind. On the flip side of that is something called the nocevo effect which is essentially the opposite experience. So people are told that you know here's this treatment but be really careful,

 

Melanie (48:19.690)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (48:23.649)

you

 

Melanie (48:25.889)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (48:36.674)

you

 

Steven Judge (48:42.450)

all the side effects that could happen. And in these studies, they do get all those side effects, but then they learn there was nothing in there. So just, it's just such an important thing I'm starting to understand because even in the context of, you know, whether you're taking a medication or a natural supplement, you know, your perception and focus on what could or could not

 

Melanie (48:43.649)

Yeah

 

Melanie (48:58.011)

Even if.

 

Steven Judge (49:13.133)

is going to be one of the most influential things on whether or not you get better.

 

Melanie (49:17.750)

Oh, so, such a golden nugget to end the episode.

 

Steven Judge (49:20.550)

Yeah, so look, it's a huge topic that essentially what I'm getting into is I would recommend books, podcasts and authors who talk about this stuff. So one, and to get an understanding of how this all works and techniques to harness the placebo and reduce the nocebo. So I've got in my head a book is by a medical doctor called Lisa Rankin. I think it's called Mind of Medicine. So she was,

 

Melanie (49:30.010)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (49:36.149)

See you guys later. Bye.

 

Melanie (49:38.932)

Oh, yep.

 

Melanie (49:45.410)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

 

Steven Judge (49:50.550)

for us to launch conventional doctor, who then learned about the role of the mind and write this book called Mind Over Medicine. That's an awesome book.

 

Melanie (49:52.790)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (49:56.929)

Mm-hmm. I've read that and I actually read that when I was I was really losing faith in my body. This was many, many years ago and my sister recommended that book to me because I felt like what you were mentioning, I felt like my body was failing and I had no trust in it anymore. And in reading that and then learning that, you know, the body knows how to heal and it wants to heal and anything going wrong is just like a little flag being waved like you mentioned.

 

Steven Judge (50:13.150)

Hmm.

 

Steven Judge (50:16.466)

Yeah.

 

Melanie (50:27.190)

and it wants to get back into alignment and yes, I think that is so powerful.

 

Steven Judge (50:32.910)

Yeah, and it's like, you know, it can take time to integrate that understanding. You know, it's not like, well, I get that. And but, you know, it's like, because of like, you know, our upbringing and our traumas and all that kind of stuff, you know, it's it's almost like an ongoing practice to learn to trust your body and harness a perception of safety and that you have the power to listen to what your body's trying to say. And I just think it's one of the most important and influential things in our overall health. And it's a practice.

 

Melanie (50:37.772)

Oh yeah.

 

Melanie (50:46.349)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (50:53.991)

Yeah.

 

Steven Judge (51:02.991)

bit surf it's like oh my god

 

Melanie (51:04.474)

It is. It's constant, isn't it? It's constant work.

 

Steven Judge (51:07.390)

Yeah, and you know, the conventional medical system itself, look, if I get hit by a car, cool, I'm going straight to the hospital. But outside of that, like emergency acute management kind of care, which they're brilliant at, the system itself is quite, in my experience and in client's experience, is quite alarmist and like, oh my God, and the body's a scary thing, we're gonna manage it and something's going wrong. And it's just the mindset of it

 

Melanie (51:17.154)

Hahaha! Yeah!

 

Steven Judge (51:37.470)

not helpful or empowering. And so it's really yeah like so I guess what I'm getting into is yeah definitely check out Lisa Raking Mind Over Medicine. There is a cool book out there by Joe Dispenza called You Are the Placebo. That's a really cool book.

 

 

Melanie (51:54.689)

Ooh, I haven't read that. Okay, cool.

 

Steven Judge (51:57.390)

Yeah, off the top of my head, there'd be some pretty good resources. I'm sure there are other people, but yeah, if you Google placebo, nocebo. And yeah.

 

Melanie (52:03.749)

Mm hmm. Hmm. Touching on what you just said before we finish up how you, you mentioned the medical industry is quite alarmist. I mean, my experience, especially, and others listening around giving birth and how doctors see birth as something that can be, that needs to be managed by the medical industry. And it really just takes away. Um, I think our power and intuition trusted our body knows how to give birth.

Melanie (52:34.329)

But definitely we've got that, you know, we know that private medical care where they're managing your birth and labor as something that could go wrong at any minute, it really affects your outcomes and also you feel so fearful of the whole ordeal.

 

Steven Judge (52:50.510)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not a topic I've personally explored in much depth. I intuitively, I do not have children, but I do know deep within myself that as soon as the moment came where I decided to, I knew I was having a child, I would be very deeply investing my time and energy into, you know, understanding what kind of birth I want my child to go through. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure if it would be an answer at all.

 

 

 

Melanie (53:16.849)

Totally the care providers and yeah, yeah amazing episode. So Steven, how can our listeners get in touch with you or work with you if they think they have histamine intolerance, where can we find you?

 

Steven Judge (53:31.970)

Yeah, just my name, stevenjudge.com. That is my website, Instagram, Steven Judge Naturopath and Facebook. I've got a bunch of resources and blogs and eBooks and videos and stuff.

 

Melanie (53:40.649)

Mm-hmm.

 

Melanie (53:46.369)

You do, you have the best blogs. They're so in depth, even just for practitioners listening, you know, they're really, they're so easy to understand, but really go down to the nitty gritty. You don't leave anything out, which is really, I love that.

 

Steven Judge (53:49.150)

Thanks.

 

Steven Judge (53:59.350)

Yeah, I should have mentioned today too, like the latest blog I wrote, which is a while ago now, but which I do see get missed with histamine issues, these are the dominant issues, and especially this unexplained nausea is this Gilbert syndrome.

 

Melanie (54:04.782)

Go.

 

Melanie (54:14.289)

Oh, yes, I've seen that a few times on Bluetooth, but I myself don't know much about it. It wasn't taught.

 

Steven Judge (54:21.150)

Again, it's an issue with poor detoxification, again, but just all estrogen and a few other things. And so I see this a lot with histamine intolerant people. They've actually got Gilbert syndrome. So...

 

 

Melanie (54:33.769)

And that's how often founders high Billy Rubin on a blood test, right?

 

Steven Judge (54:37.070)

or even even hi Billy Rubin. So that's your clue. They have people, I'd say go have a read of that blog. It's pretty interesting.

 

Melanie (54:40.049)

So that includes CF, SQL, they're going to have a really good platform. Yeah, I'm going to be ready that today. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you so much for your time today and we will have to have you back on again to talk about probably Civo next time because that's another whole topic that you're an expert in. All right, thank you.

 

Steven Judge (54:50.039)

Alright.

 

Steven Judge (54:54.552)

Oh, I love it.

 

Steven Judge (54:57.672)

Love to.